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Post by Flytrap on Apr 30, 2007 12:23:45 GMT -5
I had wanted to post this thought awhile ago, but had forgotten about it.
I had a bunch of left over aluminum pie plates, which we've had in the family for over 40 maybe 50 years. In the old days, the aluminum pans were thick and sturdy. Since no one in our family really bakes anymore, I thought these pans would make great water saucers.
So i placed a few sarracenias and various Droseras atop a few of these pans. To my chagrin, all the plants started to look wilted after about 2 months of growth. At first I thought it was not enough water, as our summer last year was quite hot. But I noticed a pattern late last fall when the plants that had been kept atop ceramic and plastic saucers/pans were strong and robust, while the plants in aluminum pans were browning and wilty.
Eventually I figured it out. At the end, all my droseras died (rotundifolia, capensis, and intermedia) while the sarracenias came back after I repotted it with fresh peat and sand mix.
So I guess Aluminum is toxic to sarracenias and to droseras.
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Post by vraev on Apr 30, 2007 12:27:25 GMT -5
hmm...is it Al corrosion with water producing various dissolved oxides that are showing this effect? Hmm....interesting observation. Sorry for your loss though Flytrap. Atleast you have multiples of the plants to restore your collection.
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Post by funkytechnician on Apr 30, 2007 15:14:23 GMT -5
you have a point vraev, the corrosion of the aluminum will produce oxides, and I also had this worry before. I used aluminum for underground channeling, and noticed that the exposed edges began to oxidize, so I replaced it with titanium which doesn't corrode. It was unknown to me what the oxides would do, but I guess you figured it out the hard way flytrap
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Post by lloyd on Apr 30, 2007 20:17:20 GMT -5
I've heard that aluminum is toxic. In tissue culture guides they say not even to use aluminum instruments. My dehumidifier water seems to be Ok and I think it's very low in dissolved salts, as I've used it for years. I think the condenser coils are aluminum but after a few years I think they are covered by a stable coating of oxide which probably does not go into the water. Toronto water has 0.1 mg./Litre which probably adds to it's toxicity.
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Post by Syble on May 1, 2007 19:52:40 GMT -5
strange, but I suppose not completely unexpected! I use an aluminium domed cake pan for starting seed, never noticed a problem! and it's thin and cheep, comes from the dollar store! Sib
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Post by lloyd on May 1, 2007 20:11:53 GMT -5
I'm going to see if I can get a cheap aluminum test kit and check out my dehumidifier water.
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Post by martin on May 2, 2007 10:19:46 GMT -5
Sure is much more expensive though Dont do any testing, Al effect on plants is already documented: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aluminium#Aluminium_and_plants_.28Phytoremediation.29Aluminium and plants (Phytoremediation)Aluminium is primary among the factors that contribute to the loss of plant production on acid soils. Although it is generally harmless to plant growth in pH-neutral soils, the concentration in acid soils of toxic Al3+ cations increases and disturbs root growth and function.
Wheat's adaptation to allow aluminium tolerance is such that the aluminium induces a release of organic compounds that bind to the harmful aluminium cations. Sorghum is believed to have the same tolerance mechanism. The first gene for aluminium tolerance has been identified in wheat. A group in the US Department of Agriculture showed that sorghum's aluminium tolerance is controlled by a single gene, as for wheat. This is not the case in all plants.
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Post by mabudon on May 2, 2007 10:35:26 GMT -5
Interesting- I have, many times, come close to putting plants in aluminum pie plates (last year I got something like 15 Sarrs in pots kinda out of the blue and had NO clue what to do with them all) I always had a notion, tho, that something like this might be the case and so have never actually done so. Excellent topic, Flytrap! Oh and Jackie- I think you'd probably experience trouble eventually with them pie-plates, but not positive- I think the cheapo ones have some kind of coating on them Funkytechnician- I hope that titanium was "salvage"
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Post by lloyd on May 2, 2007 13:07:46 GMT -5
I meant I was going to get a kit to test if my dehumidifier water is contaminated with aluminum. The only "test" I've done so far is to water my CP's, orchids, and 10 gal. aquarium with no ill effects so far.
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Post by barvinok on May 2, 2007 17:55:25 GMT -5
Aluminum that we generally use (old fashion pots, pie plates, wire, parts in dehumidifier etc.) covered with very thin oxide film and is safe as long as it not getting into contact with acid, peat is acidic and here we go: I think Mabudon is right about coating on thin plates. Never had any problem with starting seeds in those
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Post by Flytrap on May 2, 2007 20:58:52 GMT -5
Wow ... that's a wealth of good advice from all of you out there! So glad we've got this forum for exchanging knowledge.
While we're at it... here are a few more items of "poison" for CPs - I've learned over the years: - Safer's soap has killed my sarr purps and darlingtonias, along with some sundews (can't remember which ones). - boiling sphag moss. Yup. Boiling the moss. Back when I was a student many eons ago, I had some wonderful VFTs that I had been growing in an aquarium tank...covered and in full sun. Over time, the sphag moss grew very lush and green, but I was not happy with the small thrips that kept appearing on the moss surface... so I removed all the sphag moss in an attempt to sterilize it. In my wisdom, I boiled water and threw my sphag into it... literally cooking all the sphag. I removed the moss, and let it cool down, then repotted all my VFTs with the newly "sterilized" moss. Only to learn that all the VFTs died within a month. I think it was Leo Song down in California who later informed me that when I boiled the moss, the celluar structure of the moss had been destroyed - releasing salts, and probably opened the door to bacterial and fungal invasion that eventually led to the demise of my VFTs.
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Post by lloyd on May 2, 2007 21:14:50 GMT -5
I once boiled the milled peat on someones advice. It made a rock solid mixture that still grew all sorts of moss, algae, fungus and little crawling guys. I think all the stuff comes from the air anyway.
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Post by mabudon on May 3, 2007 7:33:10 GMT -5
Ahhhh I never comitted that "boiling moss" mistake- tho (as I kinda sheepishly told Jay) I used to "treat" peat/sand mix with boiling R/O water and leave it steam out on my front porch- I don't know exactly what I was trying to prove, but that's what I did- besides ruining the container I was using, it didn't seem to do anything good or bad- it ID make a lot of people ask me what I was doing
I think one of us is going to have to go through this thread later and make a "DON'T" topic of things a person might not consider at first to put as a sticky somewheres
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Post by funkytechnician on May 3, 2007 7:48:13 GMT -5
LOL, ......................may have gotton it from work...................well that part of the aircraft need to be refinished anyhow
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Post by vraev on May 3, 2007 9:44:37 GMT -5
lmao! ;D Hey dude! WHere the hell is the rudder? hmm......... ;D
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