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Cites
Mar 19, 2007 18:24:36 GMT -5
Post by jay on Mar 19, 2007 18:24:36 GMT -5
Hi I'm just curious to see if anybody has read or has an in depth understanding of the cites laws , i see the term being thrown around on the message boards like holy water in a hammer and stake movie. Brandishing the term to make the lowly poachers skulk back in the shadows.
But really its mentioned in every current cp book , but with no in depth detail, are there any lawyer's out there who can give an in depth light to this dark tunnel , besides cites 1 and cites2 .
I know abit more than what the books tell , mostly from orchid growers that travel in the same circles that i do . really I'm just trying to get a topic going for education and fun for the masses ;D
cheers jay
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Cites
Mar 19, 2007 20:53:51 GMT -5
Post by Flytrap on Mar 19, 2007 20:53:51 GMT -5
Everything you wanted to know about CITES but was afraid to ask: www.cites.org/Read it and weep
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Cites
Mar 20, 2007 7:43:18 GMT -5
Post by mabudon on Mar 20, 2007 7:43:18 GMT -5
Trust the punk to stir up trouble eh ?? We got into this on the phone the other day, so I know where Jay will lead it after enough people chime in Darn it- since it's Jays thread, I'll leave it for him to elaborate- to the Mods- he wasn't privy to our behind-the-scenes discussion of the recent flare-up concerning CITES so when we spoke it came up, he couldn't figure out how the "hammer and stake movie" got started without the "secret" background... Okay, I'll shut up now, wait for the second installment
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Cites
Mar 20, 2007 16:34:24 GMT -5
Post by jay on Mar 20, 2007 16:34:24 GMT -5
listen , what im getting at does these set of laws really work or serve to protect the plants . What are your opinions ? Thanks for the web site post .. and mabudon pipe in im not trying to get this debait going for my own good , well maybe i am
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Cites
Mar 20, 2007 16:59:49 GMT -5
Post by Flytrap on Mar 20, 2007 16:59:49 GMT -5
CITES is a good thing. It's in place to prevent creeps from ripping up natural habitats and killing plants and animals for pure commercial exploitation.
I've read about how the trafficking of plant and animal species have placed many into the brink of extinction.
In fact, I spent years in Malaysia and Indonesia preserving Nep habitats, and distributed nep seeds around the world to people who desired to grow these wonders in their man-made artificial habitats. I also had fun helping neogtiate a plant exchange with our local university (UBC) and the Arboretum at Cal State Fullerton, the then HQ for the ICPS... but this is another story.
It was only after hitting the wall of narrow minded beurocrats and other witch hunters that I realized that it was easier to work within the "intent" of the regulations, as like in most everything else - common sense is often not used. I've seen plants chucked into containers destined for the incinerator due to the confusion of official papers, even though everything had been properly documented.
Really frustrating when you have to deal with inexperienced officials here in Canada. An example was last spring when a large shipment of Neps came in from Borneo Exotics. We spent 12 hours waiting for the beurocrat in Ottawa to find the papers she had lost. All this time while our plants were held in cold storage (after days of travel).
So there you have it. CITES is a good foundation, and when implemented by intelligent people, it works. It's just too bad that "intelligent people" are rather impossible to find in many government beurocracies.
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Cites
Mar 22, 2007 7:56:45 GMT -5
Post by mabudon on Mar 22, 2007 7:56:45 GMT -5
One of the thitngs Jay mentioned in our conversation was the way the CITES came into being- it was initially desigend with solely animals in mind, and plants were added to the already established framework with seeming NO thought as to the differences between a cutting of an artificially propagated plant and "cuttings" of animals Another odd thing that I'd never considered but Jay pointed out- the way the CITES is set up, you could conceivably get "busted" by taking a hundred year old herbarium specimen (and for silliness let's say it was originally from an artificially propagated plant) and crossing a border with it- unless you want to jump through ALL the hoops, it would constitute a crime under CITES The LAST really silly part of CITES that we discussed is in regards to habitat- if I were to go somewheres and dig up, say, a plant of S.oreophila, I'd be in TROUBLE under CITES- however, if I BOUGHT the land and paved it FLAT, totally legit The emphasis on "trading" with hardly any emphasis on the factors involved in reality really makes the thing kinda silly. I tend to look at it more like Plato- just men obey just laws, after all
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Cites
Mar 22, 2007 12:38:59 GMT -5
Post by Syble on Mar 22, 2007 12:38:59 GMT -5
I'm sure I'm gonna get a ton of flack for this but... The way I see it, cites is a lot like I see many things. It looks good at a quick glance but when it comes to the second look, you realize how flawed it is. Cites is an idealistic and single minded approach to a problem. The mission is clear; to protect endangered species, be it plant or animal. I understand for animals it’s a lot different and you can't encourage homeowners to breed clouded leopards in their backyard... Not a good idea... risks definitely outweigh the possible benefits. BUT that’s completely opposite for plants, even with the carnivorous nature, humans are in no danger ;D. A person could get any protected plant from a legally acquired source(nursery or personal collection, whatever), then go around and in turn grow themselves a small army of that plant, kinda like what david has had happen with the oreophilas. I'll bet that his naturalized stand can rival just about any natural stand.... and his is just one set. I can think of half a dozen people in Canada who have it, and tons of people in the UK and USA all have it. Well I've gone off on a tangent but you get the idea of what I'm on about... The point is that if everyone followed cities to the letter the plant would not only be in very few numbers as is, but many locations or forms may have been lost which are instead being kept alive in cultivation after, like it was said, someone buys a bog, bulldozes it and puts a mall on it. I would wager money that if ever someone bought a piece of land in oreophilas natural range and returned it to the natural state (say bog/savannah...completely ready for CP's) and said to the Global CP community "I have restored this piece of land back to its original state and wish to repopulate it, can anyone send me some oreophila divisions to help get it started" the outpouring would be phenomenal! They'd have to get a crew together to help plant everything! I don't actually have one but if I did I'd offer it up to such a good cause, post it for free and everything. My problem with cites is that it makes an act like that difficult/prohibitive in personal collection work. By all means I think they should be protected in habitat and the like, but, and this is a big but, I think that the work many collectors do with it shouldn't be viewed as illegal or frowned so much upon! If a person in the UK has 10 different forms and can put out 5 plants of each form by division and god knows how much seed, in a single year, then I think he ought to be encouraged to spread that around as much as possible. That breeder can do more for that species by continuing it through protected collections, than cites can by protecting the plant in habitat, while that group gets killed off by development and climate change. Just my view on the matter, Sib
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Cites
Mar 22, 2007 15:07:59 GMT -5
Post by jay on Mar 22, 2007 15:07:59 GMT -5
Great this is what i like a heated debate , keep it going i'll be back!!
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Cites
Mar 22, 2007 15:26:12 GMT -5
Post by mabudon on Mar 22, 2007 15:26:12 GMT -5
Jay, is this some bizarre form of internet pyromania- start a fire and then stand around watching it burn I don't think you have "flack" coming at ya, Sib, you basically stated a slightly different, "evolved" version of what the rest of us have stated so far. The whole CITES needs a re-think LARGE, since it seems (in terms of plants especially) to be doing NOTHING as far as its stated mission- hell, there's still F-ing POACHED VFTs fer cryin out loud available on E-bay- how long do you think you'd have an "open" auction if you were sellin a poached tiger?? So when someone decides to sell some S.oreophila seeds they (for all intents and purposes here) made themselves all hell breaks loose, just " because" thanks to CITES, whereas you'd think (and I'm not getting into the politics of selling seeds anyways, that's a WHOLE nother deal) that every completed auction could mean the "pressure" on that species from poaching/collection would decrease fractionally....
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Cites
Mar 22, 2007 17:20:39 GMT -5
Post by jay on Mar 22, 2007 17:20:39 GMT -5
The intent of cites is good , most of my opinions have been stated above, so I'm not going to repeat it , but my biggest beef , and Ive been reading up on it for a while before this whole seed scandal popped up. Is cites was written by lawyers with real no indeapth advice from field researchers or botanists , flora was crammed in so to speak at the last min with the fauna. Some grouping of plants have been placed in appendix 1 with out any real field data numbers(slipper orchids from Asia) . I just believe it should be reviewed and retooled with greater input from the scientific community ....
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Cites
Mar 22, 2007 17:22:48 GMT -5
Post by jay on Mar 22, 2007 17:22:48 GMT -5
ps burn baby burn...
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Cites
Mar 22, 2007 20:24:24 GMT -5
Post by Flytrap on Mar 22, 2007 20:24:24 GMT -5
There's been CITES I plants (N rajah, N khasiana, and S oreophila) sold and traded by various members on our OCPS forum.
But for whatever reason, some lemmings on another CP forum had decided to go on a witch hunt on some poor sod in Red Deer Alberta.
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Cites
Mar 22, 2007 22:11:44 GMT -5
Post by jay on Mar 22, 2007 22:11:44 GMT -5
Im sure none of there collections clean . Lemmings i like that , might use it.. Thats why i worry sometimes about posting my list of plants , i know i have nothing to worry about . may be i should take down , l
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Cites
Mar 23, 2007 7:49:12 GMT -5
Post by mabudon on Mar 23, 2007 7:49:12 GMT -5
Jay, you alright?!?!? you got cut off in mid-post Only thing you gotta worry about is the Wading Dutchman (like the flyin dutchman only he steals S.flava, not souls)
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Cites
Mar 23, 2007 8:11:24 GMT -5
Post by Syble on Mar 23, 2007 8:11:24 GMT -5
I wouldn't worry about your growlist, I encourage people to post as accurate of a growlist as is possible. Those plants are all common in collections....wel maybe not that common as I've only got some seedling oreophila the process to get to you should anyone possibly spark an interest would be rediculously hard, if not completely impossible hehe, I'm very stubborn. Not like you went and yanked anything outta the ground! So worry not, and that goes for everyone! Sib
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