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Post by Dennis A(cook1973) on Jun 7, 2014 9:46:20 GMT -5
I was reading up on plants Lane sent me and read a unrelated topic that stated some CP's actually prefer light burns like a fire! how can that be? I mean even if the vegetation burned helps the plant wouldn't the heat from the fire heat the ground causing the roots to die from the heat? www.amjbot.org/content/86/9/1264.full.pdf
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Post by LucST on Jun 7, 2014 11:48:15 GMT -5
This would be because the sarracenia can be over grown by other bigger plants, shrubs and trees. When you have a fire it will burn everything but since it is in a wet environment the roots, tubers and rhizomes will be mostly unaffected due to the high heat capacity of water, meaning it takes a lot more energy to heat up water then other materials such as soil, granite and what not. So if you have a big fire it will burn everything down to the grown leaving just the root system to regrow the plant, and as the article suggests that winter burns helped remove the dead pitchers (something I do with a lighter once they are dry) and helps seedlings grow in the coming year. The fire doesn't directly benefit the plant that has been burned but rather the removal of its neighbors and competitors. There is no point in lighting our bog gardens on fire since people with them keep them nicely manicured, they are not that big and ever few years we divide the plants.
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Post by H2O on Jun 7, 2014 12:44:51 GMT -5
Great question Dennis, I've altered the title and moved the thread so hopefully more people will see it and chime in.
Im at work now but I'll reply with my experience tonight.
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Post by hal on Jun 7, 2014 13:53:40 GMT -5
I think some Australian drosera seeds also benefit from exposure to smoke, don't they?
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Post by Dennis A(cook1973) on Jun 7, 2014 14:28:59 GMT -5
@ Hal I cannot see it since smoke means fire and exssive heat kills seeds But hey I am a newbie so maybe I cannot comprehend this and its true for certain species I need to do some research on this if its true then again Tropical dews and pitchers had to encounter fires and still grow there after fires so there has to be a element if truth to it.
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Post by LucST on Jun 7, 2014 14:37:05 GMT -5
Dennis there are tonnes of plants that require a burn to reproduce. Look at pine trees (I may have the wrong tree) that need a fire to open up the pinecones and release the seeds. Fire is a very natural process that we are upsetting the natural cycle of growth, death, renewal, and regrowth by firing the fires.
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Post by Dennis A(cook1973) on Jun 7, 2014 14:50:47 GMT -5
I can see what your saying and do not disagree at all I just cannot comprehend the concept I think you had the right tree I think they shed their needles to like a insulation before the fire sweeps over I should know better there are 5 in my garden and I live near a lot of trees I guess I am 10 parts naive and 90 parts fool lol !!
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Post by hal on Jun 7, 2014 16:44:44 GMT -5
I can see what your saying and do not disagree at all I just cannot comprehend the concept I think you had the right tree I think they shed their needles to like a insulation before the fire sweeps over I should know better there are 5 in my garden and I live near a lot of trees I guess I am 10 parts naive and 90 parts fool lol !! The roots or tubers are below ground and aren't killed by the fire. Nor are large trees or shrubs. The fire comes along and clears out all the competing overgrowth and burns up the deadfall into nutritious ash, leaving the way for the plants to sprout and grow and fertilizing them at the same time.
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Post by bonfield on Jun 7, 2014 16:53:12 GMT -5
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Post by Apoplast on Jun 7, 2014 17:26:09 GMT -5
Oooh, fire ecology. I want in on this conversation!
Dennis, Justin is right, it's a great question. Folks here have covered a lot of the basics. Essentially, underground structures are pretty fire resistant. That includes the rhizomes of sarrs. The fires open up the pine forest habitat that most species of sarrs live in in the SE coastal plain of the States. It can be hard to imagine if the species you are most familiar with is the northern purple species, when it's growing in sphagnum bogs, but the southern species can get choked-out without fire.
The long leaf pines that often form the natural, open, canopy of trees over most sarr species are fire dependent too! Their bark is very fire resistant, and so when there are ground fires - even hot ones - they survive and their seedlings can get a better start on the now sunlight soil surface. In fact, there are some species that have seed capsules that need the heat from fire to open at all! These plants are said to exhibit serotiny.
Other species have seeds that wait until a fire burns over them as a signal for germination. As an example, for seeds of many of the tuberous sundews from Australia you'd be hard pressed to germinate without some sort of a smoke treatment. It's actually the chemicals in the smoke that signal the seeds to germinate. Other species require smoke to induce flowering. Interestingly, because for some species are keying on the ethylene in the smoke, which is also produced by over ripe fruit, I've known people that have gotten plants to bloom, or seeds to germinate, by placing the pot in a zipper baggie with a banana peel or a rotting apple. It's a cool trick that doesn't involve the dangers of fire - just stinky fruit.
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Post by LucST on Jun 8, 2014 11:19:32 GMT -5
Oooh, fire ecology. I want in on this conversation! ... Other species have seeds that wait until a fire burns over them as a signal for germination. As an example, for seeds of many of the tuberous sundews from Australia you'd be hard pressed to germinate without some sort of a smoke treatment. It's actually the chemicals in the smoke that signal the seeds to germinate. Other species require smoke to induce flowering. Interestingly, because for some species are keying on the ethylene in the smoke, which is also produced by over ripe fruit, I've known people that have gotten plants to bloom, or seeds to germinate, by placing the pot in a zipper baggie with a banana peel or a rotting apple. It's a cool trick that doesn't involve the dangers of fire - just stinky fruit. That was really well put. Although what you said about some plants using ethylene as a biochemical trigger is pretty cool! I knew that you could play around with the rate of ripening of fruits with ethylene and that its an important chemical in the global food trade. That all being said playing with rotting fruit is less fun than playing with matches
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Post by Dennis A(cook1973) on Jun 8, 2014 14:18:05 GMT -5
I just remembered that in NL partridge berries need a frost to bloom and the best ones are always found on land that burned over the year before! I guess if a berry can make it a CP can for sure.
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Post by hal on Jun 8, 2014 16:06:09 GMT -5
I just planted some tuberous dew seeds. Maybe I'll toss a banana peel on top of them. Last time I grew them I sprinkled some ash from the fireplace on the soil and they germinated well. But I have no idea if the ash did anything because I didn't have a control pot.
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Post by lloyd on Jun 8, 2014 17:58:15 GMT -5
The Eucalypts of Australia actually seem to cause fires with their oily leaves. The fires destroy other vegetation but the euacalypts survive/seed/germinate.
Smoke extracts seem to be general purpose germination stimulants so you can always try them with difficult seeds.
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Post by nwflytrap on Jun 10, 2014 21:18:13 GMT -5
Oooh, the fires of the boreal forest.. A favourite topic of mine coming from a forestry background. The species that require fire to germinate are the jack pine. Their cones only open when exposed to intense heat. Red and white pine are actually evolved to survive the fire itself, and then propagate in the now barren understory. Having walked through hundreds of bogs up here with sarrs, I can assure you that they face stiff competition from other bog plants. Laurels and leatherleaf seem to be the most aggressive growers, with cottonleaf grass growing thick in areas as well. Even sphagnum can over take them. I've been through many burn areas. When a fire goes through a bog, it is a very irregular burn, with a patchwork of burned and untouched areas. When a fire goes through jack pine, in about 5 years, you won't be able to walk through the area due to the dense regen.
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