|
Post by brian on Apr 21, 2008 15:56:09 GMT -5
OK, I am just going to see if I can pull this off.. convert excel graph to pdf then use photo software to make it a jpeg.. beats taking a picture of my computer screen. If it works I'll post some explanation later!
|
|
|
Post by purpman on Apr 21, 2008 20:54:11 GMT -5
Brian,
Thats very cool.. and by my estimates, quite accurate. Snow is an amazing insulator.
This winter as some of you may know, I moved my entire Sarracenia collection outside. Snow was the only insulator I used... Lucky we had tons this winter, next year, I need to be more careful.
Anyway, all my plants came through with the exception of a couple. These we exposed by melt water coming out of an eves trough drain and thus melting the snow at the edge of one of my bogs and leaving the plants open to the elements.
The rest of the bogs were piled with snow.. everything came out as fresh as they went in in the fall! As as side note my flava flowers are bout 5 inches tall now outside! (niagara Falls).
The only catch to snow cover is making sure you have it !
Thanks again Brian for the stats
purpman
|
|
|
Post by lloyd on Apr 21, 2008 23:03:54 GMT -5
Don't forget the insulating property of dead leaves. I have a 1.5 foot snowbank next to the sidewalk that is sitting in full sun covered by about 5 cm. of dead maple leaves.
|
|
|
Post by brian on Apr 22, 2008 5:15:27 GMT -5
This is a sample of some experiments I have been doing over the last couple of winters. I plant a temperature logger just at the surface of the soil in the fall, retrieve it in the spring and plot the soil temperature along with air temperature (daily mean) and snow cover, both available from Environment Canada. The original intent was to get some measurable idea of the insulation value of snow, and by seeing what plants overwinter getting an idea of their relative hardiness. What surprised me the most is how with very little snow the temperature flatlines at zero throughout the winter. My best guess is that it is connected with heat of freezing – the heat given off as liquid water at zero degrees turns to ice is the same amount of heat required to heat liquid water from 0 to 80 C. So given some insulation from the snow or other mulch the temperature is effectively buffered at zero. In last years experiments Rick gave his bog a decent mulching and temperature stayed at zero all winter. Mabudon bravely relied on snow cover alone, and he did experience a partial loss of snow in mid winter followed by a cold spell. This showed up as a small dip of soil temperature to I think –2 or –3 C. In Hastings Highlands very cold air preceeded snow by a couple of days (unusual there but it happens) and mine dropped to about –5 C. I didn’t update my grow list last year because stuff I had given up on was re-emerging into late summer. This year I put one logger in the mini bog and one up on a hill in sandy soil to see if dryer soil had less flatlining. The dry soil did get a little colder at first but snow came swift and heavy so both stayed at zero all winter. I think conditions were ideal, when I retrieved the loggers last weekend the last snow was melting away under plus 25 C air temperature – no freeze / thaw cycles to worry about. I don’t recommend anyone try overwintering rare or prized stuff this way, you need mulch. I don’t mind getting a few replacement VFTs if I have to. Its possible one year I could have a complete winter melt followed by –35 C air temperatures but I don’t yet know if this is statistically a five year event or a twenty year event or whatever. I think some prime areas for growing would be the lee of Georgian Bay through Muskoka, the lee of Lake Erie and maybe parts of the mountains in BC, anywhere snow comes fast and reliably. Lloyd, you're right about the leaves. I always get a bit of leaf litter on my minibog that I have to pluck off in the spring. Its not much but I'm sure it helps shield the plants in the few days before the snow arrives. Purpman, glad to hear the huge snowfalls we had did some good! It was your article in the Star that got me into this - it just blew me away that you were overwintering VFTs outdoors by just kicking some snow over them!
|
|
|
Post by Syble on Apr 22, 2008 8:55:59 GMT -5
I always find this quite interesting. If you ever want to do a very southern ontario bog, mines available... but i warn that there isn't snow coverage really, I end up muching with pine needles. everything came through ok though. Sib
|
|
|
Post by mabudon on Apr 22, 2008 9:15:50 GMT -5
No mulch for the purpman?!?!?!?! And you call yourself a CP-er?!?!?
Joking of course- I didn't mulch either, paid for it with all my flytraps but everything else seems okay
Thanks for posting your data Brian, nice to have yet more evidence to help us along
It would be fascinating to get some data from somewhere out west, like the praries, we should figure out if anyone is growing outdoor stuff there and try to line that up for next year
|
|
|
Post by tom on Apr 22, 2008 9:40:53 GMT -5
Very interesting, thanks Brian!
|
|
|
Post by brian on Apr 22, 2008 14:40:16 GMT -5
Yes I would love to try a prairie bog, minus 50 C air and no snow until the spring when its too late... of course our volunteer would have to mulch, it would tell us how much is necessary though. Now that I have the hang of this, here from the winter of 06/07 is: Ricks bog, well mulched, perfect flatline Mabudon's bog, no mulch, decent snow, good flatline, zone 7 I think, and Brians bog, no mulch, crappy snow cover for the area, zone 3 I think. Note the scary plunge in soil temperature to nearly minus five. Rick has a couple of hobologgers still in the field for the winter of 07/08, I think he is looking at a couple of mulching methods.
|
|
|
Post by purpman on Apr 25, 2008 11:36:42 GMT -5
These are really fascinating results... I think you should should write an article for the Carnivorous Plant news letter with your findings. As an ex board member, I used to get all kinds of emails from people looking for info on growing cps outdoors. I think there's a huge bunch of folks that would benefit from this research.
Just me making a suggestion..
purpman
|
|
|
Post by jonnybee7 on Apr 26, 2008 12:08:51 GMT -5
Very very interesting indeed. I am in the building stages of building a bog myself this spring, and would be interested in collecting data like that for you next winter. I live south of Winnipeg, out in the country and we usually have weeks at a time of -30 or colder(its a rare ocassion that we see -50, but it does happen). But we can get alot of snow here some winters, so I wounldnt be able to gaurantee a no snow winter.
Let me know what I'd have to buy to do this.
Jon
|
|
|
Post by brian on Apr 27, 2008 18:23:14 GMT -5
You don't need to buy a thing I would love to log your bog next winter! I propose sending 2 hobos (if you use mulch), one for your bog and one for an unprotected control.. Purpman, I would like to do an article but I would need a co-author with expertise on the plants since my area is chemistry with bits of meteorology, environment, physics and engineering
|
|
|
Post by dom1234 on Apr 27, 2008 21:28:55 GMT -5
Are you interested as well in a peat bog in Quebec? I can offer mine.
|
|
|
Post by brian on Apr 28, 2008 15:47:47 GMT -5
I'd be interested in Dom's and Syble's bogs, I'll have to think about this because I only have four! Over the summer I'd really like input from the board on where we could get the most "bang for the buck" in terms of what we should try next. They don't make the model I use anymore, its about 15 years old. Onset now sells a waterproof Water Temp Pro v2 at $115 each, but because its sealed the battery has to be replaced after 6 years at the factory. I would also need to get the optical interface base at $110 and $39 for software lite. The nice thing about waterproof is I don't have to stick it in a jar that could muffle temperature swings. They also have a model that records illumination and temperature, and I think they have one that maintains a radio link for remote downloading. Imagine having your computer warn you if your bog is dropping into minus temperatures so you can run out and add protection! Google Onset Hobo Logger for product info or just google temperature logger for the competition. I'll keep looking myself to see if there is a way to expand my arsenal. Maybe I'll figure out the e-bay thing and find a bunch of the old models compatible with my existing interface and software.
|
|
|
Post by daniello on Apr 28, 2008 23:47:56 GMT -5
very interesting graphs! i plan on starting (or at least attempting) an outdoor bog this summer (saskatchewan). it sure gets coooold here, which makes me worry a bit, but usually there is lots of snow to go around. i'm still a complete n00b though and won't have many different plants growing out there or anything. maybe once i've got a few more years under my belt i will be able to produce relevant data for the group.
|
|
|
Post by Syble on Apr 29, 2008 8:08:05 GMT -5
Brian do you have like an exact name/tittle/modle number for the hobos you have/need? I can look on ebay for you and see whats available if any?As for the jars, could you not just put them in heavy duity freezer ziplocks if you wanted them closer to the subject? or is there too much risk or leaking? Just trying to brain storm here. And you're more then welcome to use my bog. I do believe i have a sampleing of al temperates out there and some marginals! Thanks Sib
|
|