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Post by H2O on Dec 16, 2015 17:30:08 GMT -5
This seems to be on ongoing topic and common question among growers with a lot of hear say and misconception throw in. I wanted to start this thread to not only share one or two of my observations but as a place for people to share solid facts about tested methods for seed germination. Please avoid repeating what others have said and only contribute first hand experience. This thread isn't meant to say any one way or wrong, just a place to share what has worked and hasn't worked for them. The first common observation I wanted to bring up was stratification for Darlingtonia californica. Many people believe that this is totally necessary like the closely related genus Sarracenia but in my experience is a total waste of time. Not only do you waste time stratifying but you also increase the chance for fungal problems to develop on the seeds during the process. This year finally convinced me that it is totally unnecessary, I gave a couple hundred seeds to kdawg here on the forum (we also work together) and all of the seeds were immediately sowed. These seeds were seed I produced myself and stored dry in the fridge and (admittedly a bad place to store them) on a shelf in my room. This first batched started germinated on mass around day 24. Seeing the success is decided to just give him another 1000 seeds to germinate, those germinated a day a part from this first batch. Regarding the freshness of seed, yes it is important but after these batches I gave kdawg a package of seed from 2014 and the only difference in germinated was that they started 6 days later around day 30. If anyone was wondering (as kdawg and I were after a few drinks while sowing Sarracenia seed) GA3 does work on Darlingtonia californica. The test batch started to germinate around day 10 (could have been sooner but who checks on seeds after a wee right??) We have yet to see how these plants develop compared to the non-GA3 batches. One of the 5 pods from this year.   |
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Post by H2O on Dec 16, 2015 17:50:00 GMT -5
The second one I wanted to bring up is a little more common with newer growers. Many people once again assume that all temperate plants need stratification to germinate. This isn't so with Dionaea muscipula, flytraps, to an even greater extent compared to Darlingtonia californica. Flytraps in the wild will flower in the spring, set seed and drop seed during the summer, germinate in the fall and grow enough to get them through the winter. If that isn't clear enough I don't know what is! I've grown flytraps several times from seed and get amazing germination doing nothing more then throwing them on peat and sand. kdwag's photos from this year. Sowed on Oct 11th and germination on Nov 2nd, plus a photo from yesterday (Dec 15th)   |
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Post by shoggoths on Dec 16, 2015 19:38:02 GMT -5
Thank for the information H20.
I think a bit more information is needed on the germination ratio.
I usually get 10-20 seeds of a specie, not 1000.
Sure, if I get 1000 and only 50 sprout, it is still alright but that could mean 0 out of the 20 ...
So, does the unstratified seeds have a high germination ratio ?
About fungal contamination, I like to stratify my seeds on coffey paper.
The paper is wetted with a mix of water / peroxyde then put in a ziplock.
It works well for me.
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Post by H2O on Dec 16, 2015 22:56:11 GMT -5
That's a great point that I didn't mention, the germinating for the untreated seeds are 80% + so far. Could hit 100% in the end. There are a lot of seedlings at kdawg's place right now  The GA3 will easily hit 100% but we only did 50 or so seeds in that batch. The peroxide is a great idea, I use a similar product when strating Sarracenia. I like to argue that stratifying still has a way high chance for fungal issues compared to just sowing the seed haha Next year we plan to run another experiment with Darlingtonia seeds and do it very detailed. Count seeds and make exact germination gates for different methods. |
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Post by stevebooth on Dec 17, 2015 8:54:52 GMT -5
Also what are your propagating conditions, heated, with grow lights, inside, outside in a green house? I suspect that they are at least under lights and probably heated as they are growing at this time of year, which can be a very different scenario, especially at this time of year, to someone who say has to grow their seed without the benefit of heat and lights, where germination will not occur till spring anyway, when some form of natural stratification may have taken place.
Certainly contrast the germination rates etc given the conditions you provide but there are going to be differing rates bearing in mind individual circumstances.
But to answer your question I have had good germination (cant hazzard a guess at the actual rates I'm afraid)of Sarracenia with fresh seed with no stratification sown indoors in late autumn and seed older than a year with six weeks wet stratification.
Cheers
steve
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Post by kdawg on Dec 17, 2015 20:08:16 GMT -5
Hi Folks,
Interesting topic. I'm out of commission for a couple days but when I'm back I will be happy to share pics and info about my set-up the seeds H2O is referring to are growing in.
Cheers
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Post by kdawg on Dec 22, 2015 13:13:29 GMT -5
Hello, I am back and recovering from hernia surgery so please excuse me if this is a little sloppy, As H20 mentioned, we’re not saying this is the right and only way or by any means a proper scientific experiment… just general observations. Any and all feedback is welcome. My set up (The Seed Asylum) is basic yet consistent. It is in a cool room and consists of shelving lit up by 54watt T5 6400’s. All flats are presently covered with domes and heat is supplemented by heat mats that are controlled by an ‘Aquafarm’ temp controller with sensors in the media which keeps temps within 1-3 degrees of desired temp. The controller has a 10min stage delay to prevent it from turning on and off constantly. All photos are taken with an Iphone and a shaky hand.    The light are on a 16/8 cycle. Sarracenia, Darlingtonia, VFT’s have a media temp of 73-78° and an air temp of 75-80° (the air temp dips slightly during dark hrs). Nepenthese racks are running slightly warmer. Below are some pic’s of the babies. GA3’d Darlingtonia at 15 days after planting (this year’s seed)  The same seed sown earlier without GA3, they took 24 days to get a mass start. It is challenging to take a pic of a full flat with an Iphone as it only focuses on certain sections but most of the flats look like this  This seed is from 2014 and was not GA3’d, although I wish we would have tried it on some (see what I mean about non-scientific). They woke up in 30days  Dozens of pots of VFT’s of several different varieties (mostly OP) were planted from this year’s seed. All sown directly and they started popping at around day22   This is the first time ever actually seeing baby VFT’s at this stage and I am blown away by the variation within a single seed pod. I’m excited to see them mature  Thanks to H20 and his southern buddies, we acquired some amazing fresh 2015 Sarracenia crosses from down south. All Sarrs were GA3’d and started sprouting on day 12, then in masses about 6 days later. Stay tuned for more pics from other crosses as they mature.  Sarracenia ‘Gremlin’ X S.Leuc ‘Hurricane Creek White’  This seed is from 2014 and took 20days to germinate  The seeds below that are soaking in GA3 is a cross from H2O. S.Leucophylla F. viridescens X S. psittacina var.psittacina F. viridescens (try writing that on a label  ) Has anyone seen this cross before? It should be interesting. Note: If you present H2O with A&W chicken fingers and beer, he will pretty much give you anything.  The pics below are a red form of N. ampullaria . The seed came from a forum member (Thanks Roraima!) I am pretty sure it was really fresh as they started sparsely at 22days and then consistent at 28-30.   I am having so much fun playing around with the Seed Asylum over the cool winter period. I love learning from mistakes and hopefully I learn something from some wins. Thanks for reading. |
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Post by amanitovirosa on Dec 22, 2015 15:06:27 GMT -5
...great post, very informative, thanks for putting it up! I did something similar with VFT seeds last winter (I think on a smaller scale though). I also found out first hand that Flytrap seedlings can be very unique. I probably have about 700 seedlings (still have not done a final count), the variation is incredible! It is definitely a great way to pass the winter months. I did not stratify any of the seeds so I can also say that VFT seeds don't require it. Cheers!
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Post by H2O on Dec 22, 2015 15:24:27 GMT -5
Epic.
Can't wait until next year, just so others know, this flytrap seed was only from the leftover (late) flowers from my flytrap collection. Which was maybe 8-10% of what I had this year, the rest where sent away for TC. After seeing kdwags Seed Asylum I'm going to pollinate all of the traps this year and not cut off any flowers. Hopefully we'll get good results and potential cultivars.
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Post by amanitovirosa on Dec 22, 2015 19:06:17 GMT -5
...I neglected to add this. After seeding 'en masse', one must ask oneself "what am I going to do after"? I was definitely not prepared for the amount of work and time that was required to pot each little seedling up individually. It almost became a full time job. My advice to anyone doing or wanting to do this is HAVE A PLAN AND BE PREPARED! I bit off more than I could chew and am just trying to prevent others from choking, so to speak. It is very rewarding though and this Spring should be a good one!
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Post by H2O on Dec 22, 2015 19:21:02 GMT -5
This is a great point. Although it might come across as "oh we just sowed a couple thousand seeds" it is far from that.
Having a plan and having the resources before you start is a good idea. Having experience in the production side of horticulture is also a bonus. I've talked to poeople that talk about starting small business's with CP in rarly do they ever come to fruition because they don't realize the amount of time (or have the skill set) to mass produce plant.
I must say you've done an awesome job producing the flytraps you have right now. I respect that you did it the proper way and not the easy way.
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Post by Apoplast on Dec 23, 2015 17:58:49 GMT -5
Hi H2O - Very interesting stuff! I've been watching and I am curious if you've tried this with northern populations of S. purpurea? Several folks around here have failed to get germination with the typical 60 days cold strat. They've found success with 90+ days though. I can't imagine in this climate it would be adaptive for plants to germinate their seeds with no cold strat. I can see it not having loads of selection against it in Dars and southern Sars, and of course once you hybridize all bets for adaptive traits are off. I'm going to be doing some legal collection next autumn for some researchers and conservation folks, so if you'd like to get any cast-off or surplus seed to test just let me know. |
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) Has anyone seen this cross before? It should be interesting. Note: If you present H2O with A&W chicken fingers and beer, he will pretty much give you anything.
