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Post by lloyd on Aug 10, 2015 20:00:09 GMT -5
We've had the thread. Now we have the poll!
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Post by Dennis Z on Aug 10, 2015 21:09:36 GMT -5
ocps.proboards.com/thread/7307/nepenthes-seed-sources-germination <Newcomers, read debate here. Lloyd, good idea, but I'll just chime in a bit more because I find it a bit misleading. The statement in question of debate is whether or not buying endangered nepenthes seeds would have any negative effect on their population and collection. I wouldn't even think about buying endangered nepenthes seed if I knew it made a difference. Perhaps change it to "Do you think boycotting will make a difference in seed collection of endangered plants?" Whatever works for you, I don't want to be too aggressive, after all, it's an open debate.
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Post by Justintime on Aug 10, 2015 22:23:20 GMT -5
Mhmm very interesting topics Dennis I'm thinking you need to make some polls with those topics
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Post by eithan0693 on Aug 10, 2015 22:30:06 GMT -5
If it made a difference I would totally make an effort to source my seeds more fully, but to be honest they are going to poche seeds either way, I figure at least if by chance I end up with those seeds, I console myself by reminding myself they went to a good home and arnt just sitting in a warehouse. If the seeds are in a warehouse I may as well buy them what's done is done. It's a bit like how I feel about meat, vegans don't eat meat thing is that just as many animals are killed only difference it makes is there's more meat for those who do enjoy it. Personally I don't eat much meat but I look at the bacon and think the same thing... It's already dead.. at least this way it's not going to waste..
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Post by lloyd on Aug 10, 2015 22:49:10 GMT -5
Everything has an effect on everything. It's convenient to deny this.
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Post by H2O on Aug 10, 2015 22:51:13 GMT -5
I haven't had time to reply to the original topic but everyone that is on the "buy it" side has one thing in common. You all feel that the seeds are better off in your hands, which history has proven they aren't, you won't share them around like you think and chances are high that you won't even have them in several years. I hope you can see how selfish it really is to support buying these rare seeds.
Once again this really only applies to an extremely small percentage of CP's. The vast majority of species can handle small collection with very little problems. Do you really need that rare plant that badly? And are you really that impatient and cheap that you can't get it through legitimate means?
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Post by Dennis Z on Aug 10, 2015 23:32:20 GMT -5
I haven't had time to reply to the original topic but everyone that is on the "buy it" side has one thing in common. You all feel that the seeds are better off in your hands, which history has proven they aren't, you won't share them around like you think and chances are high that you won't even have them in several years. I hope you can see how selfish it really is to support buying these rare seeds. Once again this really only applies to an extremely small percentage of CP's. The vast majority of species can handle small collection with very little problems. Do you really need that rare plant that badly? And are you really that impatient and cheap that you can't get it through legitimate means? Maybe it is correct for the few, but really, we are all here because we share a common interest: growing plants. No one is supporting to buy rare seeds, simply remember it is a debate. The debate was regarding boycotting and it's effect on collection as mentioned, and perhaps it can push people to a more active approach, no? A few emails, forum posts, and, etc can go a long way. I haven't sown one nepenthes seed that was endangered in my life, but I do have my opinion. Chances are high you won't even have them in a few years? Chance are guaranteed you will not have them after a certain period of time. We do not live forever, and growing shouldn't be dictated to the far future. A tiny nepenthes seedlings with it's cotlyedons will take a long time to reach an unmanageable size. Every collection has to potential to out-grow it's space and that's why we trade, sell, and give-away. Again, this thread's question is misleading. Not really addressing the debate rather a one-sided view. Even I'll vote no because the question isn't accurate to the thread. "And are you really that impatient and cheap that you can't get it through legitimate means?" - Completely agreed if we were just talking buying illegally collected seeds with assurance that it will impact conservation negatively or ruin an organized boycott/campaign. On the other hand, if you see a listing saying : "7 sold, 1 left. Time: 1 hour left." Let the pod go to waste or, buy it? Though I saw this situation countless times, I never purchased the seed however, do you think I should have? Anyways, as always, you're remarks are respected and honestly, I won't be purchasing any endangered nepenthes seeds in the future but I certainly won't stop a person if they do. If you want to start a protest, or campaign for it, I would gladly help. I think it would be a good start to active involvement rather than passive boycott.
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Post by stevebooth on Aug 11, 2015 7:30:04 GMT -5
One must do what ones conscience says is right, therefore you would not buy them, with all the possible consequences that that action could imply, it could save the populations for the future by rendering the collection of wild seeds unprofitable, or kill off the last of a species if the seeds are the last of their kind and no one buys them. Is honesty like justice, always black or white, right of wrong, or are some of you arguing for shades of grey (50?). Cheers Steve
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Post by hebtwo on Aug 11, 2015 9:34:21 GMT -5
I have to speak to the issue in a general way, because honestly I'm apathetic to what you choose to do on a day-to-day ethical/moral basis. I can't control what you choose or choose not to do or buy or think, and I don't want to.
I personally wouldn't buy them. But I think that comes down to ones own individual sense of ethical/moral accountability. Obviously creating a market for irresponsible collection of wild seed will propagate that market (which is why I'm not interested), but I think in any group of collectors (if we take CP folks as a whole), you're always going to have a percentage of people who have no ethical quandary about the practice and there's always going to be a 'black' market for rare/exotic/poached plants and seeds. It's human nature to want what we can't have. I don't think, in an instance like this, boycotting or petitioning would do anything other than draw attention to the existence of rare and exotic species and drive demand for those seeds/plants even higher and even deeper into the 'black'.
The more you tell certain people 'no', the more they seek to defy.
Like H20 very accurately said, I think sometimes the hobbyist/collector has a certain arrogance about their ability and desire and is able to justify suspect practices as doing a good thing for the species, like it's better for horticultural interception than to just leave things alone. It's romantic to think that you are helping to save an endangered species. But, then again, sometimes people just want a cool looking rare exotic plant. Nature be damned.
All you can do is what you think is right (not only for yourself, but for the influence you spread to those around you), educate yourself on opposing opinion and consider perspectives outside of your own, take all of that and build an ethical and moral standard by which to live.
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Post by lloyd on Aug 11, 2015 11:08:57 GMT -5
Bertrand Russell couldn't have said it better.
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Post by eithan0693 on Aug 11, 2015 19:07:37 GMT -5
Better then sitting dead in a ware house. Also only rare plant I own is guaranteed not poached, so on the flip side I would never go out of my way to get seeds I knew were poached.
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Post by eithan0693 on Aug 11, 2015 20:26:03 GMT -5
As a side note I would Like to mention that all plants were originally poached, so if it wasn't for people going into the wild and "illegally" collecting seeds, growing them out breeding and then sustainably putting those seed back in the wild is obviously the best choice, but if poaching didn't exsist at all then none of us would have ANY plants, and in fact there are some places on the planet where it's illegal to own ANY plant at all.
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Post by lloyd on Aug 11, 2015 20:33:14 GMT -5
"and in fact there are some places on the planet where it's illegal to own ANY plant at all."
Even a rutabaga?
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Post by eithan0693 on Aug 11, 2015 21:23:08 GMT -5
I think so yeah, I read about a small country they have no exports or imports , you cannot own a plant, I'm not exactly sure what that entitles but I'm pretty sure you can't bring them inside, it's because they don't want to mess with the environment any more . I'll look it up I can't for the life of me remember the name of it
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Post by eithan0693 on Aug 11, 2015 21:37:18 GMT -5
Okay so I can't find anything, due to the Google being too full of stuff on the US government trying to say they can't grow their own food. So as a side note, maybe it said they only had one export or something because there's only 1 country with NO exports at all and I'm not sure if it's that country or not because when i went to check all that came up was stuff about the us.. anyway I remember reading about this country like a few years back it sounded a bit like aumish people but super hard core live off the land type people it was neat.
I agree that sustainablility is a responsibility and need a to be made sure of. I don't think that seeds are better in my hands then ANY of you guys I'm honest not the best , but I can grow pretty every thing I've tried so far. Seed would how ever be better in my hands then left to rot in a hot warehouse.. if someone at some point didn't take seeds off that wild plant I wouldn't have my plants I have now. Poaching to the point of making any species extinct is terrible. So I kinda have mixed feelings about wether or not people should take seeds from the wild. I can probably say that not everyone should and only those qualified to make sure the species continues in the wild should be doing such things. Sorry for the rant but I really dont condone harming nature in any way I just see all sides of it.
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