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Post by Dennis Z on Jul 10, 2015 1:34:39 GMT -5
The thing is, we can not control what Ricardo does.. Unfortunately that is totally wrong, you can directly effect the situation by not buying aristolochioides seeds. Try to take a step back and look at the whole picture. In 10 years will you still have aristolochioides from that seed? Will you even have Nepenthes anymore? Keep in mind that if these plants are grown well Nepenthes take up loads of space when they mature, they don't stay those cute 6 inch plants that fit inside terrariums. Unfortunately it's almost always begginers that are buying these rare seeds and most people don't last in this hobby, I've only been in this hobby for a short amount of time and seen so many people come and go, build their terrariums, grow for a while and then disappear or sell everything off. I know I did the same thing before realizing I would need a greenhouse one day. So at the end of the day or a couple years down the road is it really worth it to put even more pressure on such an awesome plant just to have that species? I'll have to disagree. Like I said before, if there is people wanting the species, that is a motive for more collecting! There are bound to be stubborn people who will buy the seed regardless and if Ricardo sees some money in it, he will continue. Of course I can directly affect the situation (which I missed out on the seeds) but if I do not purchase, does that really change anything? A seed pod will then be thrown out and Ricardo goes back up the mountains after a period of time and repeats the cycle. If the whole CP community came together and decided "okay lets all not buy N.aristolochoides and ask Ricardo not to poach certain species" that will have a greater affect and even then it is not guaranteed he will stop poaching because this is how he earns his income. I agree people come and go however, when they do go, the plant is not thrown away or killed, it is either sold or given to an experienced grower that is able and will provide for the plant or given to a person that is able to provide for the plant temporarily before being passed down to an able grower.
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Post by H2O on Jul 10, 2015 1:41:29 GMT -5
That is something called mob mentality, there is a riot going on, everyone is looting a local TV and electronics store, should you rob a TV because "someone else is going to anyways?" That comes down to your moral compass. www.carnivorousplants.org/statements/seedcollect.htmlNote the first Nepenthes species on this list. A quick note on Nepenthes getting passed down to other growers, this doesn't happen with the vast majority of plants, especially Nepenthes. The classic case almost always comes down to people running out of time for their hobby and things slowly fall into decline. You haven't been around long enough to witness it but that's the rule not the exception.
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Post by roraima on Jul 10, 2015 1:48:29 GMT -5
That is something called mob mentality, there is a riot going on, everyone is looting a local TV and electronics store, should you rob a TV because "someone else is going to anyways?" That comes down to your moral compass. www.carnivorousplants.org/statements/seedcollect.htmlNote the first Nepenthes species on this list. A quick note on Nepenthes getting passed down to other growers, this doesn't happen with the vast majority of plants, especially Nepenthes. The classic case almost always comes down to people running out of time for their hobby and things slowly fall into decline. You haven't been around long enough to witness it but that's the rule not the exception. Sad but true. You're on a roll H2O! Great post!
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Post by Dennis Z on Jul 10, 2015 2:04:45 GMT -5
That is something called mob mentality, there is a riot going on, everyone is looting a local TV and electronics store, should you rob a TV because "someone else is going to anyways?" That comes down to your moral compass. www.carnivorousplants.org/statements/seedcollect.htmlNote the first Nepenthes species on this list. A quick note on Nepenthes getting passed down to other growers, this doesn't happen with the vast majority of plants, especially Nepenthes. The classic case almost always comes down to people running out of time for their hobby and things slowly fall into decline. You haven't been around long enough to witness it but that's the rule not the exception. Mob mentality is where one gets influenced by others (majority) to do and believe certain morals. Portraying me as part of "mob mentality" is a weak argument because it is now targeting me rather than the problem. The example is also somewhat erroneous. I do not believe in things simply from the influence from others. This is my opinion on the subject and not a manifestation of a common desire form an horticulturist. My reasoning behind purchasing the seeds is not simply because "someone else is going to anyways", that is only a portion of my argument. I did state many other reasons, and this one may be very debatable in both sides because human nature is very unpredictable. It is not my sole reason. The example of looting a local store is unrelated to the topic because that is on a different ground of morality. There, you are doing something illegal while purchasing nepenthes seeds is not illegal. The poaching of it is and that ties back to the main idea. Can boycotting stop the poaching? Is there examples of where boycotting has worked?
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Post by Dennis Z on Jul 10, 2015 2:09:39 GMT -5
I'll agree that I have not been in the hobby long enough to witness anybody drop out. So I'll give you that one. It's a shame to hear some people give up on the hobby and let the plants decline rather than passing it on to live in another person's care. Anyway, I will be signing off and we'll continue tomorrow. Maybe we can hear the opinions of other members that wish to chime in.
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Post by lloyd on Jul 10, 2015 12:07:45 GMT -5
Each time you do something it's a vote for that something. So if you buy seeds that all of us agree should be left on the plant you're voting for removing the seeds. If I vote for Mayor Ford then I am responsible for him being Mayor.
Also a species isn't a bunch of similar plants grown by a group of geographically isolated people.
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Post by Curtis on Aug 9, 2015 22:28:51 GMT -5
Take a look at the first species on the list. If Bonfield had said he was buying flytrap seeds, would we all have lost our sh*t? Flytraps may not be critically endangered, but they are top of the endangered list on that page. Thats beside the point. Calling someone out for buying endangered seeds does nothing. Not buying endangered seeds does nothing. Go ahead and drive a prius. You have made a very small carbon footprint, but you have done nothing to reverse the effects of pollution. I read this thread hoping to find Nepenthes seed sources and germination info, as the title suggests, but the thread has been completely misdirected. With that said, I agree with Dennis on pretty much all of his posts: The CP market is large enough that there are enough views by different people that boycotting will not be effective. Can you name any instances where boycotting has worked? The example of looting a local store is unrelated to the topic because that is on a different ground of morality. There, you are doing something illegal while purchasing nepenthes seeds is not illegal. The poaching of it is and that ties back to the main idea. Can boycotting stop the poaching? Is there examples of where boycotting has worked? I do not support illegal collecting at all, but if you think about it, I'd rather germinate the species, share it with the community and create lower demand for the species which would then decrease demand and poaching of the seeds. I was going to say something very close to this last post, but then I read this, and Dennis has said it first. This would be actually doing something. And I'm new to the forum, but forum's do have power. We could do something like this if we worked together. It would take some dedication from someone that feels strongly about the issue. Again, its really easy to attack someone for doing something you don't agree with. Its much harder to actually do something to solve the problem.
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Post by roraima on Aug 9, 2015 23:07:26 GMT -5
I don't have time to address all the shortcomings of Curtis's post. But let's just say, I wish there was a "dislike" button for this post.
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Post by hal on Aug 10, 2015 9:21:32 GMT -5
I'll add my two cents. If you buy seeds from a critically endangered, protected plant you're not "looting the store", but you're certainly buying the stolen merchandise. This is also a crime if you know the merchandise was obtained illegally. Boycotts work. Do a search for successful consumer boycotts and you'll find examples of many that have worked. Mining companies abandoning sensitive sites, cruise ships stopping dumping in the ocean and so on. If everyone in the CP community stopped buying any of Ricardo's seeds and told him they would continue to do so until he stopped selling red-listed species, it would probably have an effect. And just because someone else will do it anyway, or because it's a fringe activity, it doesn't make it right. Dionaea are at the top of the ICPS list because it's alphabetical. Note they are footnoted with "B" (not on the IUCN Red List), not "A". There are so many VFT's in cultivation that the seeds are plentiful. There was a story on this site a few months ago about some guys bagging up thousands of wild VFTs. The general consensus was that they were criminals and idiots, and probably high at the time. The issue of wild collecting, especially of endangered species, is a contentious one. People want the rarest plants and some can't wait for them to become available on the market. Rare plants undoubtedly will become available through cultivation from legitimate sources. Look at Wistuba and the species he's introduced. Here's an article by Andreas Wistuba, Barry Rice and others which talks about Nepenthes clipeata and "black market" vs. "white market" plants. www.sarracenia.com/faq/faq6010g.html. These are people who are actually doing something about the problems of wild collecting and habitat loss, rather than just throwing up their hands, claiming poaching is inevitable, and participating in it.
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Post by lloyd on Aug 10, 2015 15:34:48 GMT -5
Hal's post says it very well.
As mentioned above, we should keep a high level of discourse, which by and large we do, in this thread and elsewhere. Still it is quite reasonable to state your reasoned opinion even if it is contrary to someone else's.
Let's continue to keep things on a friendly or at least polite basis.
After all, we're all here to grow weird plants.
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Post by roraima on Aug 10, 2015 16:21:45 GMT -5
Any members wishing to participate in exciting, challenging, and possibly impolite conversations about CP conservation issues feel free to PM me.
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Post by lloyd on Aug 10, 2015 16:26:20 GMT -5
Going to Sobeys to get some local raspberries is exciting enough for me.
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Post by Dennis Z on Aug 10, 2015 17:00:39 GMT -5
Great response Hal, I'll see if I have time to type up something else later today.
I'm honestly not trying to encourage poaching but if you think about it, the many people reading this thread online will now be aware of the problem which is the goal, no?
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Post by hal on Aug 10, 2015 17:33:17 GMT -5
"The Orchid Thief" by Susan Orlean is a great read about the weird obsessions some people have with rare plants. The film "Adaptation" is sort of based on it and features Nicolas Cage when he was still doing decent films.
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Post by Dennis Z on Aug 10, 2015 17:39:29 GMT -5
I'll add my two cents. If you buy seeds from a critically endangered, protected plant you're not "looting the store", but you're certainly buying the stolen merchandise. This is also a crime if you know the merchandise was obtained illegally. Boycotts work. Do a search for successful consumer boycotts and you'll find examples of many that have worked. Mining companies abandoning sensitive sites, cruise ships stopping dumping in the ocean and so on. If everyone in the CP community stopped buying any of Ricardo's seeds and told him they would continue to do so until he stopped selling red-listed species, it would probably have an effect. And just because someone else will do it anyway, or because it's a fringe activity, it doesn't make it right. Dionaea are at the top of the ICPS list because it's alphabetical. Note they are footnoted with "B" (not on the IUCN Red List), not "A". There are so many VFT's in cultivation that the seeds are plentiful. There was a story on this site a few months ago about some guys bagging up thousands of wild VFTs. The general consensus was that they were criminals and idiots, and probably high at the time. The issue of wild collecting, especially of endangered species, is a contentious one. People want the rarest plants and some can't wait for them to become available on the market. Rare plants undoubtedly will become available through cultivation from legitimate sources. Look at Wistuba and the species he's introduced. Here's an article by Andreas Wistuba, Barry Rice and others which talks about Nepenthes clipeata and "black market" vs. "white market" plants. www.sarracenia.com/faq/faq6010g.html. These are people who are actually doing something about the problems of wild collecting and habitat loss, rather than just throwing up their hands, claiming poaching is inevitable, and participating in it. I'm going to elaborate a bit more for the sake of debate. Sure, there are accounts where boycotting has worked. But really, how many boycotts have failed? Also with all those consumer boycotts, a lot of effort would be needed to protest and get the word out before it would have any effect. These activities are quite costly and are seriously time-consuming. Honestly, I haven't heard anyone address this issue to me before I mentioned the idea of purchasing N.aristolochoides seeds so clearly, just boycotting is evidently in-effective. Another thing is, those examples are HUGE ethical dilemmas. Of course the general public will go against it. There is no validity to why you wouldn't. Corporate social responsibility and company ethics also come into play as well as many activist groups organizing protests or lobbying. Let's give another example: Rhino horn poaching. You would wonder why people would be stupid enough to buy rhino horn products but despite all the campaigning, protests and everything, poachers still do it. Why? Because there are still idiots out there, who think there are health benefits to it. Scientists have actually started to lace rhino horns with toxins and a dye to make them worthless to poachers, let's hope this does something. We do have very benevolent people in the CP community including everyone of us on the forum (minus those scammers). The "black market, white market" read was interesting. But note that it's regarding collection of plants, not seeds. Plants are definitely much worse than seeds by a huge extent. Nepenthes in the wild have a low germination rate (hence why they have a lot of seeds, more seeds= higher chance for better fitness) and the seed to mature adult time is very slow. Thus, the effect would be dramatically less because the adult plant can re-bloom the following year or two. If I ever see poached plants for sale, I would not only boycott it completely, but address the issue to the community if not already addressed.
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